Charles Page  on April 13th, 2009

Seriously, sell your assets close shop and send the money back to the churches and you will inherit the kingdom of God!

Daniel Schultz  on April 13th, 2009

Bishop,
The problem I have seen is we have hundreds of small churches. Before we plant anymore we need to help build these smaller churches into healthy reproductive churches. Church planting should not take place at the international and state level, but should be birthed out of reproductive churches within the communities they are based in. The church today suffers from infertility, and we are sending people with no preparation or resources to plant and build churches. We are sending people to a gun fight with a squirt gun.

Second, I think it is disturbing the money that is thrown away in the church. A prime example is that I heard a international official complaining he could only take one secretary to general assembly, and that person does not even qualify to vote. In the military the first thing we buy is beans and bullets, and the church needs to prioritize what is need and desire. Reality check! We are not corporate America. We are minister’s of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Donna Caudill  on April 13th, 2009

Be concerned with the church member and not the corporate ladder of the denomination.

Christian Rutland  on April 13th, 2009

They should quit allowing pastors to start a new church to a location with an already existing Church of God in that area. The Church of God doesn’t care if you have a little tiny church running 20. As long as it shows up to the big boys in Tennessee that another church has been started that’s all they care about. It’s all about numbers, like any other business. Instead of having two or three church’s in the same are to barely keep the doors open, they should join those small church’s to make one large impacting powerful Church. It only makes since. It’s time our denomination quits being political & start helping church’s grow & succeed.

Kevin Walker  on April 13th, 2009

Education opportunities (distance learning, etc.), tools and resources (that give ideas, etc. for reaching our communities)… and I wish we could give our local guys more of an opportunity at campmeeting - instead of bringing in a bunch of speakers from elsewhere, bring in one to preach two nights, and allow some of the good local guys to preach the other two (or three) or do the morning services or something.

Steve Hobbs  on April 13th, 2009

Denominations should provide the necessary tools to train their leaders, so that they can be effective in the kingdom. The tools would be different depending on location. Also, a clear vision that is communicated regularly and effectively. And some relief financially would be nice.

Neil Smith  on April 13th, 2009

Get policies on the same page, for example, GA requires MIP, fails to pass CAMS, but states require CAMS. Ministers are paying huge dollars to get credentials, especially if going through both one after the other. Perhaps create regional overseers, where I live I can be in MD, PA, and VA before I can be in my state office…if I attend things it’s 4-5 hrs trip, if I don’t I’m not supporting the program…but my people don’t want to drive 5 hours for a fun day and then 5 hrs back. We’re too territorial!

Rodney Vickers  on April 13th, 2009

Asking questions like this is a start. Seriously Bill, one of the best ways denominations can help local churches is by raising ministerial literacy of resources of how to do ministry better. A second way is by serving as a facilitator for greater connectivity among pastors, staff members etc.

Chad Smith  on April 13th, 2009

It doesn’t matter how many plans and programs we install as a denomination. If the local pastor will not utilize the giftings and resources available for them from heaven they will not be effective in Kingdom work. A great way for the Church of God to look out for the local church is to pool our resources and as another already stated, quit allowing 15 churches in a 2 mile radius. The case is here in Camden, SC where our church is down the road from a church which runs a total of maybe 25-30 on Sunday morning. Being a younger pastor, this in as insane as shooting off your nose to save your face. Where is the logic in this? Why must we have competition instead of winning our cities?

Valerie Mullins  on April 13th, 2009

There are several things I would like to see our denomination change, but I will only address a couple. Firstly, instead of having a minister “try out” or submit his resume for a new church/church move, I think a committee should study the statistics, history, demographics, etc of the church and then compare them to the history, style, age, methods, education and spirituality of the pastor applying. Too many times there are gross mismatches from the get go, and that only leads to hurts and failures for both the minister and the church. Secondly, unless the MIP has drastically changed since my husband and I went through it, it doesn’t even come close to truly preparing a man and woman for the demands of pastoring. And the list for needed changes in that area are too many to list here. One of the other things I know we pesonally needed from our leaders ourselves, was positive communication, which developed a relationship. There’s nothing worse than feeling like you’re all alone.

Dan Sturgill  on April 13th, 2009

Bishop, very good question…one that ALL, not a few, overseers should be asking. I think the of the biggest needs in the cog is our lack of administrative training. Where do our Pastors learn how to budget, hire staff, cast a vision, organise ministry etc…

Daniel Schultz  on April 13th, 2009

The problem I have seen is we have hundreds of small churches. Before we plant anymore we need to help build these smaller churches into healthy reproductive churches. Church planting should not take place at the international and state level, but should be birthed out of reproductive churches within the communities they are based in. The church today suffers from infertility, and we are sending people with no preparation or resources to plant and build churches. We are sending people to a gun fight with a squirt gun.

Second, I think it is disturbing the money that is thrown away in the church. A prime example is that I heard a international official complaining he could only take one secretary to general assembly, and that person does not even qualify to vote. In the military the first thing we buy is beans and bullets, and the church needs to prioritize what is need and desire. Reality check! We are not corporate America. We are minister’s of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Fred Brannen  on April 13th, 2009

Thought provoking question - brought though provoking answers. I really enjoyed every comment!

Tim Kidd  on April 13th, 2009

Wow… you asked for it. I’ll keep my thoughts in a message. I’m not one to just air things out for everyone to read.

First, thanks for asking. Not too many people would be brave enough to ask.

Second, my wife Jamie and I attend East Market. I don’t think we have officially met, but we did sing at Prayer Conference Friday night, and out best friends are Todd and Sherry Orr, who I believe you do know, and they speak very highly of both you and your wife.

I do agree with many that have already posted. I think the one thing that I truly agree with is what Christian Rutland said in the thread already, that we have to many smaller churches all competing against each other and other denoms. I think of Starbucks as an example. Even in the Akron area within a 5 square mile radius, how many churches do we have? And many seem to be jumping from one tank to other with no “Real” growth.

“So and so’s church grew 50 people”. Why, they all came from another church. That’s not real growth IMO and I think most would agree.

But there is a problem with closing churches, and that means pastors will lose their pastorates. Yet a larger church, with better financial resources can have a larger community impact. Not saying that smaller churches can’t, but we have to face the facts. But on the other hand a larger church could assimilate other pastors to be associate pastors to lead up other ministries in the church. This is obviously easier said than done and would require a complete paradigm shift in so many areas.

Many of our smaller churches buildings need overhaul. I can think of one where the ladies restroom opens and closes into the Sanctuary. How many women would feel comfortable going to a church like that?

A possible solution maybe this. We grow churches to a certain capacity, based on the size of the church. During this time, we train, teach leaders to be planters sending them out with a Pastoral team, and a congregation. These newer churches are Satellite churches of the Core church. The Satellite churches are also strategically placed so they can promote growth from the community and not necessarily core church.

We have an opportunity in Northern Ohio to have in place several core churches and the planting and building of a new core church with the property that East Market has. It may require closing of smaller churches and some pastors to possibly lose their position. But if we have to take a few steps back to move forward, then we might have to.

A good example is the Chapel here in Akron. The chapel in the last 10 years has built two Satellite churches, one in Hudson and one in Green. With congregations leaving the Akron campus to go to the two churches nearest their community, and they are thriving churches. Leadership was grown from within the Chapel and then sent out to the other churches.

God Bless
Tim

Adam Tripp  on April 13th, 2009

Thanks for starting serious dialogue!

1) Our pastoral appointment process needs to stop straddling the fence - either allow churches to accept resumes directly and take a true vote or allow overseers to research and understand both an individual church and a pastor’s ministerial vision and make an appointment that matches vision, values and direction. Too many times overseers are having to make appointments just to put out or prevent fires and in the end, neither the church nor the ministers involved emerge satisfied.

2) As it has been said, MIP does not properly equip for practical ministry. It may work OK for those only wanting to better themselves as believers in their local church but does little to help those that are already in ministry or those with college education. Those that are desiring to step out and leave their local church in ministry need to have a different opportunity for training and equipping.

3) Provide resources and ministry outlets that churches (especially smaller ones) would not be able to access on their own. Youth camps, leadership training, quality videos and graphics, a group health insurance plan, outreach ideas and resources, retirement benefits, satellite feed opportunities and bulk purchasing of church resources just to name a few. The COG does well with some of these (Winterfest, youth camps, retirement funds) but falls short of creating and searching for new areas.

Hope this helps.

Chad Collins  on April 13th, 2009

“For us … As a new church, we would just like a phone call of encouragement and support for what we are trying to accomplish for the Kingdom”

Ben Wiles  on April 13th, 2009

I would like to add my voice to this discussion. I have enjoyed reading the comments thus far. The Church of God, which is the network the Lord has placed me in for purposes of spiritual formation and fellowship, is very special to me. The men and women in this movement have had a major impact on my life.

Having said that, it is undeniable that the Church of God is in a major time of transition. This is an interesting question because I don’t think that there is a simple solution. It will require listening to the opinions and views of the community to really hear the leading of the Lord. I believe what is needed is a values shift from the grassroots level all the way up to the highest level of leadership.

I would like to say a lot right now, but no one like epic-length comments! So let me just make some brief points:

1. Vision and Mission – the church as a whole has been given the mission of making disciples of Christ. We probably need to get a fresh understanding of discipleship (know, be, and do), but regardless that is our mission. The local church is the main entity to accomplish this by working with each and every member in the area of spiritual formation to help them become the person God created them to be and then equipping each and every member to function in their gifts and callings. The state and international offices are simply a resource to the local churches around the world. They provide the support, encouragement, and accountability to each pastor to help them maximize their ministry assignment. In my opinion, it is not the job of denominational leadership to plant churches; rather, it is their job to assist church planters who are funded by direct partnerships with local churches. Like produces like – so local churches should produce local churches. By the way, the flip side of reallocating resources in our denomination is going to be less available funds to churches and pastors that are constantly looking for a “bailout.” To be sure, there are times of legitimate need, but there are some situations that just don’t need to be bailed out. Sorry, that’s my opinion.

2. Ministerial Development – We really need to sort the issue of credentialing out. I was disappointed when the General Council shot down the change in the Exhorter credential, which would have made it a credential issued by the local church for local church ministry. This would have been a great way for the local pastor to recognize a sense of call in the life of people in the local church that would not put the pressure on them to “get a church to pastor.” We need qualified leadership in the local church and not all of these people should be going out as pastors. They would be excellent teachers, elders, staff members, etc. however. But for some reason this is not seen as “ministry.” I remember when I was a worship leader in my local church before I became a pastor, I had an older minister at campmeeting ask me when I was going to start my ministry! What?!!

The Exhorter level would provide great OJT for those that feel called to pursue further credentialing and professional ministry. But we are going to have to do a much better job at equipping our ministers to think theologically and understand the world we are living in. I don’t propose that we require everyone to go to seminary, but we have some resources in place through the School of Ministry that I believe should be required for every ordained minister and bishop in the Church of God. Perhaps that requirement would weed out some that are not as serious about the work we have ahead of us. I know that is not popular either, but it is my opinion.

3. Networking and Support – (last one, I promise) There needs to be more connectivity among pastors at the denominational level. Covenant ministry groups are a great concept, but we are not yet as intentional about this as we should be. They are working exceptionally well in some places and not at all in others. This needs to be focused on with more intentionality and we need to provide better training of our ministers to maximize the effectiveness of these groups. I propose a shift to a coaching paradigm and that we create a coaching network in our denomination that will provide peer-to-peer support, encouragement, and accountability. This training could (and should) begin as part of the ministerial internship program and continue through each level of credentialing and beyond. You cannot just tell everyone that we are going to coach each other. Most people don’t have a clue what that means. But once you have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in transformation through this style of leadership and relationship you will never be the same. To work properly, however, it requires a values shift at every level of the denomination.

I’m done. If you made it this far, you get an extra star in your crown!

Soli Deo Gloria

Rick Fowler  on April 13th, 2009

We have so many areas that may need to be addressed. One of the the first things that we need to look at is how “top heavy” our denomination is. Of course then the “tithe of tithe” issue is tied into making sure our overhead is funded properly. In my opinion we have in some ways created a dependence on state and international offices at many local levels. We have rewarded failure and have allowed our friendships and love for one another to cloud our judgement in making appointments and in reaching out in new directions. We have to be more kingdom minded and not think that life evolves around the COG. We have great leaders and laity alike in the COG so I am not anti COG at all. It has already been stated that we have way to many churches some areas and not enough in others. The concept of regional officals sound like something to explore, changing how we set the regional leaders salaries and do we need state youth directors whose pay is set by Cleveland? I think we need to support our leadership with adminstrative assistants but could we broaden their base or even use secretarial help to accomplish some of the same things? We must move to a more independant mindset in order to stay together. I know that sound like a contradiction but we can’t have states continuing to underwrite churches as we do and to fund places that continually have money issues. The leadership of each local congregation has to commit to that church and do whatever is necessary to make it. One of the options should not be calling the state office for money. As has already been stated the training of leaders and further equipping of our pastors has to be a priority. I have more to say but then what preacher doesn’t?

Janice Poston  on April 13th, 2009

I personally like a more centralized form of church government as it spreads the resources out from the local church. I also feel more secure as a member. I do think we need authority and leadership. I realize I am probably in the minority here, but I still feel that authority and standards are a good thing. In a larger body more can be accomplished.

jason walkerow  on April 13th, 2009

Very brave question, Bishop. I can appreciate these responses as well. I am an Ordained Minister in the COG as well as a business man in the secular world. In business if things do not go as planned you pack up and leave or try something else. You also would not put a McDonalds right around the corner from another. Much like the Starbuck’s comment (I’ll take a tall white chocolate mocha - thank you). But rather we all would be honest and admit it or not, church today has become a business. I have several friends that could not find work in the secular world so they ran off to find employment through a church. Some in the COG and some not. Perhaps we should focus on the churches we have as oppossed to trying to get more out there. We have actually caused more harm then good if you think about it. Pastor’s who have been around for a while are getting left behind for a new younger minister. We have crushed the spirit of the older ministers, and have done nothing but made the younger ones more arrogant instead of learning to work for it.

We are not the only ones facing this question. We are the only ones blessed to have someone who cares enough to ask it.

I believe that there are resources available to the ministers; however, much like anything else you have to want to learn more, and get yourself to the place of learning more. Before we point fingers at a denomination, lets look in the mirror. Has God not granted each of us with an imagination? I can understand that right now especially there may be some economic rough periods. Has anyone looked at grants? Has anyone talked to the bank about small business loans or anything like that? Has anyone tried to hook up with some of the non-profit grant helpers that are out there? Probably not. It’s easier to look for a hand out as opposed to working on the solution ourselves. I think education is key. I think we need to allow our ministers a full understanding as to what is available to them as a resource. But it is up to the minister to be willing to obtain the knowledge available.

Training is important. I went through both CAMS (MAP at the time) and MIP. I believe that knowing what others have seen in ministry is important, but we need practical implimentation of things. Like the “How to’s.” I was a youth pastor for 5 years. No one showed me how to do any of it. I had to pray, fast, and cling to my imaginatinon or idea as to how I thought it was suppose to be. I know we have one week or two of visiting a small church and a large church in the organization, but what about some real training?There are some ministers in the pulpit today that do not know what the COG believes because they were too worried about passing the History and Polity 2 times to be an Ordained Minister. I look at it this way… when we as an organization have focused more on ourselves in our history, our politics, and our government and how we are to be good COG ministers as opposed to God’s Word, and how to be effective in winning lost souls, we are in trouble.

I know that money is tight for us all. I think that YWEA should focus some time and effort on the souls of those here in America. You can’t go to Chicago one time and be effective. Let’s take that money we gain from our golf tournaments and everything else we do for YWEA and focus on our communities. If you want to build a church, focus on the needs of the people. I have faithful employees because they know I love them and I care about them, and I am there to help them. I’m not affraid to go out and work with them. If you want people in your church and you want it to grow, love them, and give them an opportunity to serve, and love others too. A community will never know you if you’re stuck behind your desk or on a golf course. It’s time to mix it up with them and get a little dirty. Let’s shred the tie, roll up the sleeves and do something. You all remember this… “Don’t just sit there, do something!” It came from an old TV evangelist. But he is right. If you want something to change do something about it. You don’t like the fact that you don’t have the numbers you want on Sundays or mid-week? Do something. If you try something, and it’s not working, do something else. Use your God-given talents and imagination.

Those of you that are struggling with ministry push foward. Break throughs only happen when you are williing to push! DO NOT GIVE UP!

Rodger  on April 13th, 2009

Here is one for you guys.Is the way that our organiztion is structured even Biblical? I mean think about it. Yeah, there were a few guys over other guys, but strictly in the sense as a mentor. There were no General,State, or District overseers. There were pastors and elders and deacons on the church level. There was no state or general level. Just the local church. So if this is the case, why do have such a system?

Rick Smith  on April 13th, 2009

Than you for asking Bishop Isaacs.
I would like to see a re-structure of how our denomination cares for the local church.
I have been very blessed to pastor a church where we have been able to become self supporting and are now putting in place some tremendous ministry opportunities for our people and I really have no beef with our denomination. I think my AB is doing everything he can possibly do, I just think the position has too large of an area that they must cover, leaving the local churches and pastors to feel isolated.
The vast majority of pastors I talk to feel overwhelmed and have no clue how to build and how to manage what God has entrusted them with.
I constantly hear comments like “The state office doesn’t care about me” or “All the state office wants is our money”. Whether or not you believe this usually depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on…(selah).
What would be the possibility of changing the State Bishops role to more of a mentoring ministry for local pastors, free him up from a lot of the red tape and petty referee work that he has to spend the majority of his time working on.
Some how designate the administrative work to those who are called to that type of work and allow the State Bishop to spend more time working one on one with pastors, going to their church and helping them find solutions for the problems thay are facing.
I believe this would encourage the pastors and cause them to want to stay longer and be more committed to the work.
Have more state meetings and trainings does not seem to work like it did in the past, I think it has to be more one on one.
Finally, I would love to see a better exit strategy for our pastors who want and need to retire. Possibly allowing them to serve as district or regional pastors that could step in for the local pastor when he needs a break or could help the AB by spending time with the local pastors and helping them solve problems.
I have never understood why we take our pastors from our largest churches and make them district pastors when they already have a full plate pastoring their own congregations. Give our retired, experienced pastors opportunities to feel needed and wanted.
Just a few thoughts, thans again for all that you do.
Blessings!
Rick Smith

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Rick,
You raise some interesting possibilities and it will require us to consider looking at new models as we transition through the coming years. I’m telling people, “the church of god will not look the way it is anymore!” That’s not a negative commentary on past or a pessimistic look on the future but rather a feeling that as we begin to adjust our approach to be more local-church modeled, we will find our traditional leadership models will be outdated. The key will be getting the church “at large” to accept new models. Assembly after assembly, new leadership paradigms are offered and voted down. Our rank-n-file have not been ready for dynamic change in leadership because we don’t trust enough yet. My hope is we will in time and the present situations are forcing us to do what we may not have otherwise done.

Some territories are using retired ministers as DOs with mixed results. In one place I hear it works well and in the other, pastors have not responded to retired ministers as either mentors or administrative elders…so the jury is still out on that. You are right that relationships are the key to effective ministry growth and even that is changing as you and I engage via this online community!

Love ya man…

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Question #1…what was the role of the Apostles in the formation and oversight of the local churches in Ephesus, Phillipi, etc.?
Question #2…was James the elder statesman of the 1st Century church? Did Paul feel submission to his leadership over the Jerusalem church?
Question #3…did Paul establish himself as territorial overseers over the churches he planted? Perhaps a better word would be apostolic overseer?

Your point is well taken and yet there are significant areas where the early disciples and church found value in leadership, oversight and guidance.
Thanks for sharing!

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Your business model has interesting parts that may be valuable to the transitional leadership needed for our church in the coming 7 years.
From a business model…should the expansion of new local churches be restricted because other churches are not growing? I see that common mention in several posts that new churches should not be started before we grow others…but I’m wondering since there is so much diversity in the world, is there value in having different styles of churches in the same region/city?

Please respond back.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Next week I hope to explore the topic What Denominations Do Well?
Care to share a few of your personal thoughts/suggestions?

Anybody else want to venture some things denoms do well?

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Rewarding “failure” has been a problem for our church, I agree. We don’t know how to manage people who are “out of position.” As an overseer, what do you do with a couple who have not proven effective as pastors but who have no marketplace skills and have reached an age where they cannot be placed in churches? What about leadership who have given 30+ years to the church and have reached the vulnerable late 50s and early 60s and need placement? Does the church have responsibility to position these people since they were originally appointed by the church many years ago? Placement has been an issue since our beginning…it is the achilles heel of our system because the appointive process has no “exit strategy” and people are trapped. Now this financial restructure will “kick some to the curb” as critics desire but even then it may not get us to the place we want to go because there will still be people who cannot be placed. The larger question for me is how do we get people in the right places where their gifts match their assignments?

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Ben,
Thanks for raising the credentialing issue. I feel your pain. Sometimes I think we make it too hard for passionate young leaders to get license in the COG and then at times I think we license people who have no business with credentials. The process continues to evolve and our educational resources are continuing to be stretched. For me the process looks like this…

Acceptance in ministry is based on local church endorsement and basic understanding of church governance and doctrine.
Advancement in ministry requires more educational investment and requires more evaluation of gifts and experience.
Full ordination should not require an extraordinary number of years but should be based on a process of evaluation that is equitable and accountable to those who have abilities to evaluate personnel.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

I’m hoping someone in your region sees this post and calls you.
I almost asked you to post your number so some of us could call you but I decided against that since it would open the door for the ‘CLOWNS’ is this community to abuse you…and they would! HA!

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Adam,

You raise the appointment process for pastors and as an overseer let me share that this is not a perfect system now, nor was it perfect when it was exclusively appointed by the overseer as you mention. In those days, the cry was I cannot get my name before the church for consideration because the church has no voice and the church cried they got no choice in the matter and were simply handed a pastor whom the overseer felt was a fit (or in some cases) was a man who needed to be moved from the other church he had torn up! As it now, it is a 3 pronged process…the overseer who nominates, the candidate who desires the church and the congregation who confirms. Matching gifts and culture is always the key. My little slogan is “you don’t want a rock-n-roll preacher if you are country-western church!” My goal is to look at a pastor’s experiences formerly as the indicator of how well he/she might do in the new environment. It is not always perfect but most of us do the same things even in different places.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

The new models that are emerging where local churches house multiple congregations is an interesting one. In Columbus, Ohio, Rodney and Valerie Mullins have four congregations meeting in their building at various times and the cumulative rent pays the church note freeing up more of the tithe for ministry investment.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Fred,
Your vast ministry experience would be invaluable to many of these young leaders. Please share your wisdom as opportunity allows and thanks for frequenting this board.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

One of the dilemmas with your premise is that sometimes a smaller church is resistant to the kinds of adjustments that will help them move forward. Church planters often can start fresh and advance evangelism without have to “transform” the older models into contemporary models that appeal to the unchurched. But your point is well taken and should not be casually dismissed. Smaller churches need help.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Making good leadership models available has always been a vision of mine. Young leaders like yourself (you are still young, right?) need positive and affirming role models who can teach them the ways of ministry and by experience the pitfalls to be avoided. Some regions are doing this better than others. I like what Bishop Martin is doing in DelMarva and I think Florida is doing something in this area through their Leadership Development process. The Covenant Pastoral program also offers excellent connections for young leaders to find help for ministry development.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Elevating ministry models in public has created a unplanned for feeling of competition among leaders. Even Paul advised that such comparisons are not wise and yet our nature is to compare ourselves to what others are doing. I love the example Jesus and Peter on the shore and Peter sees John walking by and inquires “what about him?” Jesus responds, “what is that to you…YOU FOLLOW ME.” Let’s affirm one another, resist temptation to compare successes and focus on our own assignments in Christ, drawing strength from one another.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Charles,

Say what?
You serious?

What can/should denominations do? « Missional Church of God  on April 14th, 2009

[...] Isaacs What can/should denominations do?Last Minute Easter [...]

Neil Smith  on April 14th, 2009

You post a truism when you said that if you are a rock and roll preacher you don’t want to be in a country western church, we need to look at giftedness as well as style. Years ago Doug Small spoke of how we have often placed people in positions not because of giftedness for that position but because of need. It leaves both sides frustrated, often unsure why it isn’t working. Many of us remember the days when pastoral appointments we made in a matter of weeks, if not quicker, AB walks in with three names and someone is appointed that day…not anymore. I’m not sure what the total answer is, am quite sure that money isn’t all of our problem either…but for us to be productive the present and upcoming generation is going to have to see the value of the movement and those above them will have to regain their trust!

Harold Beesley  on April 14th, 2009

There have been so many great posts, I am almost embarassed to enter my opinion.

1. We need a central location of ministry. But not as nepotistic as it has been. The creation of positions is embarassing.

2. Birth is always the product of health. The local Church should be the creator of birth. If our local Churches were stronger, birth would be a naturally occuring event! When we create local “Churches” which can barely sustain themselves “headquarters” is wasting “our” money by trying to create lie.

3. Reduce … reduce … reduce! Many of the Pastors who support the system are bi-vocational. It may be time for those who haved lived off the system to do likewise!

4. Educate!! We haveplace men in the Pastorate, who reflect all of us with little of no exegetical knowledge. Teach Doctrine!!!

5. Total financial trasparency brings accountability. Stop the hiding! Where does the money go? Not some attempt to hide, like expenses: xxxxxxxxxxx.xx! That day is over!

6. Our technology has ended the day of hiding. We love our CHurch, we wonder whether it loves us.

7. Deal with A.B.’s who spend money like drunken sailors!! Who abuse their power, theaten, and get moved up!

:-)) I am done for now!

Rodney Mullins  on April 14th, 2009

Bishop, I really have a heart for the issues raised on this post. I would just like to share a few. First, I think new churches are needed in some places and in some places there may need a replant of older ones. In our community we have 65000 Samalians, thousands of Spanish speaking residents, Residents from all of Africa, Asians and thousands of disinfranchised Christians. I truly believe that we could use another 20 churches but not just copies of what we already have.
We have just joined with a strugglin new church to Mother them. We are working to assist and help lead this plant. We have planted an African congregation of 60-70 and are working with two other African congregations.

I am totally against not starting new churches but I am 100% for starting purposed churches to reach certain members of a community not being reached by the present ministries.

Our new work in Westerville is just 10 minutes from us but they are contemporary and casual in their approach.

Why am I saying all this? For far two long the local church has depended way to much on the denomination. I believe that ministry is up to us on a local level.

Get a vision that keeps you up at night.
Make sure everyone around you knows that vision.
Train and equip leaders to bring that vision to fruition.
Multiply your vision around your community to reach every people group.
Equip leaders with a Kingdom mentaltiy that will reach beyond the borders.

My last thought is not so much that the denomination is not there enough for me but at times has been there to much. Allow me to be creative. Allow me to use the local resources and equity to reach people with the message. Allow me to instruct and rebuke if neccesary in order to remove those that are fighting the vision. If they will not allow me to train them then the demonination should allow me to trade them.

I love this open format and communication. This is the start of what I think will navigate us through the transitions ahead.

danielschultz  on April 14th, 2009

I think taking state and international leadership out would be a grave mistake. Taking out leadership will cause many people to become lost in this ministry thing. I believe we need to regain our focus as a church. I believe the main issue has not been the structure, but merely the failure of leadership on all levels. We all can take the blame, but selling and closing shop does not seem like a reasonable answer.

The church today is facing more issues than ever before. Leaders need to emerge. I see too many “called” people crying when someone says something mean to them. Did we think leading sheep was going to be easy? I think we have had our full of leadership development, and I believe we have to start toughening up. The issue with ineffective leaders usually stems to one thing. The leader has no identity without their pulpit, and it is sad. These men have labored, but I am not sure they can accept the fact God is transitioning them into another place. Do we sacrifice the furthering of the gospel based upon someone who is trying to figure it out?

Reality, leadership means we have to make decisions that may not always be the frills and thrills, but sometimes we have to make tough decisions that will cause people to accept the truth they have not wanted to accept.

Rocky Majors  on April 14th, 2009

State offices need more money to equip their respective states. Offset the cost by making credentialed ministers support the state with a portion of their ministerial tithes. The state can then afford to help equip small, struggling churches. It seems to work pretty well according to a small fellowship called the AG.

Louis Morgan  on April 14th, 2009

Bill, I agree with your assessment regarding new models of ministry. I believe Jeremy made a similar comment at the first session of the listening tour, and it is what I have been feeling for some time as well. Not only does this include new ways of conducting worship services, evangelism, and discipleship, but I also believe it means bold affirmation of ministries that are not typical pastoral positions. Chaplains pastor to thousands (and many are the only pastor some people have). The same goes for individuals involved in hands-on ministry in nursing homes, coffee houses, sidewalk missions, etc. I affirm the typical pastoral role, and I know many pastors are hurting. So I do not wish to take anything away from those in traditional pastoral positions. However, I feel we must be more aggressive in our affirmation and empowerment of ministers in non-traditional roles as well. While I know we feel we do this, it often does not get translated or understood effectively. I’ve had many individuals in these non-traditional roles sit in my office and explain they feel out of place in the COG because they do not pastor a local church. Yet, some of these individuals are seeing more souls brought into the Kingdom yearly than are some local churches. Others are planting spiritual seeds in people who would not attend a local church.

So I guess my question for the denomination is do we affirm both traditional pastoral roles and other ministry roles? (I’m certain we do). However, how can we express this affirmation more effectively? (I think this is where transformational leadership is vital). I believe empowering clergy and laity is essential to fulfilling our mission, especially when other denominational resources may be limited. We have too high of a barrier between our affirmation of clergy ministry gifts and laity ministry gifts. I think shifting cultural perceptions make ministry distinctions less intriguing than in previous times. How can we affirm the importance of both? Scripture explains that each ministry gift is vital and each person has a part to serve to make up the Body of Christ.

Thanks for this post. I’m enjoying reading the comments.

Scott Kazee  on April 14th, 2009

Bishop
We met at the E2conference in S. Ohio a few months ago. I’ve read most of thecomments and agreed with most. What made the COG great? Praying, fasting, holy people who recognized the world for what it was and stayed in a relationship with The Master in such a way that without formal training or education they preached with fire of God in their words and built thriving Spirit filled churches. I am a huge PROponent of traing and education, we definately need more of it…but from what I’m hearing and reading, it sounds like we’re all alone and struggling to do an impossible task. I don’t want to “oversimplify” but God is faithful. We have made shipwreck of this thing and the answer is, I believe, returning to the simplistic “power & demonstration” of the Holy Ghost that once made our denomination the great COG. This will only come through prayer, fasting, holiness & total dependance on the anointing of theHoly Spirit. This will grow churches reguardless of “style”. We’re reling too much on our own intelect and talents. God still has a “divine will” and if we get outside that will no church will grow. These are just my personal thoughts. Feel free to respond.

Tim Kidd  on April 14th, 2009

Questions proposed by Bill Isaacss

“Question #1…what was the role of the Apostles in the formation and oversight of the local churches in Ephesus, Phillipi, etc.?
Question #2…was James the elder statesman of the 1st Century church? Did Paul feel submission to his leadership over the Jerusalem church?
Question #3…did Paul establish himself as territorial overseers over the churches he planted? Perhaps a better word would be apostolic overseer?

Your point is well taken and yet there are significant areas where the early disciples and church found value in leadership, oversight and guidance.
Thanks for sharing!”

#1 - Ephesus. Church was started by Paul. I believe he left Priscilla and Aquila as leaders in the church
- Philippi. Another church started by Paul. It was believed that Luke stayed to mentor and lead the church after Paul left.

2# The answer to this maybe suprising. Yes, it is historically known that James, the brother of Christ was probably a leader of the first Judeo Christians, who prior to Pauls conversion were persecuted by Paul/Saul. There are some archeologits who argue that James sect of believers were infact the “Essenes”, the writers of the dead sea scrolls, based on writings that are almost identical in the book of James and writings found in the dead sea scrolls. In fact the road to Damascus is in enroute to the area where the Essense were know to have lived. One thought is that Paul was chasing James and his followers while on the road to Damascus where he was converted.

This sheds new light on how one can read, perceive, and understand the book of James against the teachings of Paul. James and the first century Judeo Christians had a hard time seperating the Old Covenant from the New. However with Paul, he saw how Christ was the fullfillment of all the Old Testament types and shadows and that the Old Testament pointed directly to Christ. James says “Faith without works is dead” Paul says “Nothing we can do to be saved”.

I don’t believe Paul was received all to well at first. Not only was he their former Chief Persecutor, but here he is saying, look, eat what you want, MORE BACON, don’t worry about this tradition or that tradition. I think Paul understood the significance of Christ sacrifice and how it covered ALL things. So to answer your question on #2. I don’t think Paul felt submission to James and the first Judeo/Jerusalem church his letters to the church are exactly what the Jerusalem church wasn’t IMO. His minstry of Grace was then taken to the gentiles, and who better to take the gospel to a hugely Roman empire than Paul, a Roman citizen himself.

#3 - I can’t recall where or if Paul places a title on himself. I certainly think he had confidence in his calling and understood his mission from God. He held to his convictions seen in Galations ch. 1. If anyone appointed Paul to any type of earthly title it would have been the churches he established themselves. I think Paul felt ownership of those churhes, a sense of responsibility to them, if he hadn’t, the NT would look a lot different and be a lot thinner. Paul was quick to respond. He didn’t pull punches and didn’t beat around the bush. Maybe in that aspect, as a denom, we need to do more of that.

J. David Stephens  on April 14th, 2009

I am encouraged…there are many important observations posted.

Reading them reminds me that the Church of God is not a faceless or mindless denomination. It is you, and it is me. It is all of us. We are real people that truly love God and care about one another. People who really do not have a hidden agenda, or a subversive intent.

The problem is not the “denomination” …. The denomination has done a lot of good things…we really have!

This denomination, is similar to other “systems”. Every system has 5 components:

Expectations
Rewards
Consequences
Communication
Behaviors of People in leadership

People in leadership sometimes mess up. But that does not mean that the system is bad. In my opinion, there are as many, and maybe more good, honest, hard working people in the Church of God as any other denomination [or system].

One of the most important things we should do as a “denomination” is cut one another some slack, refuse to judge one another’s motives, and stop pointing the finger.

A long time ago I learned that we always find what we “look” for. Let’s look for things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, and worthy of praise.

Let’s rally for one another. Support one another. Speak well of one another. And, when we here a negative report, don’t spread it around, instead, call the Brother in question, and give him the opportunity to set the record straight. And, follow Jesus instructions when it comes to offenses…[Matt 18:15-17]!

Hey, when Jesus prayed for the Church in John 17….He prayed 5 times for us to be “ONE”….seriously…Think about how his very last prayer was for you and me to work in harmony and unity…This is what He wants His church to be known for…He said, by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one for another”!

Jim {j.david] Stephens

John Stokes  on April 14th, 2009

At the risk of sounding harsh, here I go.

The COG has for the most part become a Hospice service. A majority of funds and efforts go to support and bail-out small struggling churches. I’m not saying help is not warranted in some instances, but there may be a reason the church is small and struggling.

Instead of a Hospice mentality we need to be a birthing station. Birthing new ministries, feeding those that are producing and training for relative ministry.

Maybe some people need to be re-positioned. Just because you are called to ministry and go through the MIP does not mean you are qualified to pastor. Unfortunately, we have many pastors who couldn’t hold down a “normal” job, yet we let them be a CEO of a church, and then wonder why they struggle.

What I would like to see is more of an affiliation role. I want to communicate with like minded people and have access to relative, quality training. I would like to see a successful church planting plan and be able to support that plan with confidence.

I don’t believe the COG dead, I believe it is growing and changing. I’m excited about what I see from some of our leaders, I just hope the change will take place sooner than later.

Jon Lowery  on April 14th, 2009

After reading the post am I right in saying that the following seems to be the main ideas:

1. One of our main problems is a lot of Churches in the same zip code.

2. We need effective leadership training.

3. We need to look at the denomination as a local contribution rather than a national “umbrella.”

What are the other major points?

jason walkerow  on April 14th, 2009

I have been known to speak my mind and be real with people, and so this won’t change me. I’ll be honest. My real problem with the COG or any denomination is when politics run it more then the leading of the Holy Spirit. I know that because of the size of the “business” is so big we have to have so many people involved. Sometimes I feel that it’s become the old saying “Too many chiefs and not enough indians.” Although, some indians are willing to do the work. I think we have people in place in leadership that truely has a heart for their ministry and the place that God has them now. But we have others that have aspirations of being in Cleveland, TN; and though that is not bad to dream, they have allowed dreams and ambition to cloud over the real issues at hand that they have the ability to resolve. Let me give and example of what I mean. If I had the cure for the common cold, but my dreams were to have the cure for cancer, and I devoted my entire time to figuring that out, I would have missed my place in the world now. I would have missed curring so many issues with the common cold that could be dealt with today. We would accomplish so much more if those who were appointed to their positions would focus on what they can do in that position for a time such as this instead of doing what they feel like and making themselves look good to make it to the next level in the COG.

Sometimes I believe we get wrapped up in planning for the future of US that we forget about the present of US ALL.

I believe the model for churches in expansion was given by Jesus himself with the disciples. I look at Jesus who discipled the 12, but more importantly the 3 (Peter, James and John). Out of those 3 Peter seemed to be the leader after Jesus left. It was Peter that was called the Rock, and the one that Jesus said “Upon this Rock I will build my church.” Peter was the one to address the crowd on the day of Pentecost. I believe Pastors and anyone in leadership need to be looking for the one to take their place. That is true discipleship, and true mentoring. I believe leaders should mentor a few around them, and no more then 3-5. Then send those 3-5 out. Out of those 3-5, churches can be started, and built with true growth. Not growth from other churches, but true growth of new blood. I believe the State Overseer’s role is to Pastor the Pastor’s. True discipleship and true mentoring will bring accountability. Accountability will bring change. I believe that churches should be started out from another church. Not planted some place to be a competitor.

When dealing with the economics of the church, my personal view is much like my view with all these stimulus packages we hear about but never see. If the US government were to take the $750 billion stimulus and use it to help pay off debts for the people, it would put money into the peoples pockets, thus allowing them to spend the money they make on a new car, or at Walmart, or whatever. It would put money back into a balanced flow. Perhaps the COG should look at doing something like that. If we have so much money floating around States and in Headquartes, then perhaps a “stimulus” of some wort would work for our churches. It might cause some Headquarter’s people to take less money one year, but it would help our local churches with some debts. If the debts were to be taken care of even just a little, it would help put a flow of finances available to the Pastor’s so they can make updates to their churches, or do outreaches. If we can’t outreach, how will their ever be any true growth for anyone?

It’s just a thought. Trying to think a little out of the box, but also in a way that could be very effective.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Harold,
I read your post with some interest.
You and I will differ on a couple of points in that I don’t think anyone is hiding. We have failed in some regards to produce open records for some things but from where I sit, I don’t think leadership has attempted to hide anything. To “hide” as your post implies would give the appearance that sinister actions are considered.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Jon,
This discussion has been very stimulating. I think it is valuable to note that in most cases, the commitment to the church community by most is strong. When one cares about something, he/she values enough to care and to invest. Not everyone is so inclined but I think the majority are.

You are a valued young leader whose voice must count for the future. Keep talking and modeling your leadership to others.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

John S.
Man, I love interacting with you. Your insight and vision for ministry on the practical side is so needed in this community. Empowering leadership at both the local level and within the larger community of the Church of God is absolutely priority. If we grow better pastors, we will have better churches. If we grow/develop better leaders in denominational structures, we will have better oversight, governance and leadership models. If we make mature disciples who understand their gifts, we will have better local churches more relational to the communities they serve.

Don’t stop shouting from your soapbox!

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Jim,
What a positive model you are to the generations of leaders in our church. I pray your words will not only be read but heeded by all of us who desire to be part of what God is doing throughout the world!

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Scott,
One thing I know for sure. None of this can be accomplished without the Lord. This is His work, we are his servants. When we do God’s business in the strength of our power, we fail miserably. When we lean on His strength we accomplish more than we can possibly imagine.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Louis,
Jeremy has not had an original idea in many years. Were it not for his younger brother and I he would have not an intelligent thing to share with anyone…seriously!

Affirmation of ministry is tricky. It is relational and positional for me. What we promote, we affirm. Some time back here on this blog, a long discussion was held regarding the promotion of public ministers whose message is in opposition to what we say we want our younger ministers to do. By promoting models that are inconsistent with the core values of our church we confuse people, even older ministers. We must be careful to be congruent in affirmation and promotion.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Rocky,
I’ve wondered how that might be received in our church as a NEXT STEP in going forward. Bi-vocational pastors in the AG tithe to the regional offices just like full-time pastors, so their investments are even more exemplary. However, since we are so strongly promoting the local church model, I’m more inclined to require pastors to tithe to the churches they pastor and minister. The AG model does work for them.

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Rodney,

Loved the thought of “too much support”–although there are many who will disagree. Empowerment is the key. Today, I asked four leading pastors in Northern Ohio this question…I can teach you one leadership/ministry concept this year, only one, what is it? Each person had a different answer but it got me thinking about answering the question “How do I…?” for pastors in my region.

What do you think?

billisaacs  on April 14th, 2009

Neil,
Trust is lost when promises are not kept…that’s what Dr. Culpepper said in that first video the IEC did. To regain trust there must be mutual commitment. Leaders must keep their word and be examples of faithfulness in their commitment to the vision the present. Followers/adherents must be open to trust again, despite past disappointments. It is not fair to hold everyone accountable for someone else may have done. I’m not minimizing pain but maturity assigns blame where it belongs to the offender and not to the position.

Rodney Vickers  on April 14th, 2009

It would be a refreshing day when every pastor and church leader in our denomination would realize that the COG is so much bigger than any one of us is. The kingdom is bigger than my vision and my ministry. Does the denomination need to help the local church? Yes. But the local church ministry is not the sum total of all the Church of God does. Sell all the assets and divide among the local churches? That’s rich. Tell that to the orphans at the home for children, students at all of our various educational institutions, missionaries and various mission works around the world, chaplains, pastoral counselors, and a million other ministries that exist within the Church that are not directly connected to the local church. In case anyone is wondering, I do serve on staff in a local church.

Rodney Mullins  on April 14th, 2009

The one concept that seems difficult for me is discipleship. Not just recreating an American Christian but true disciples. Christian Philosopher Charles Malik once noted, “No individual conversion has taken place until a Christian mind has been formed in that person”. My goal is to do just that. There are so many different thoughts on this subject I want one that meets the above goal.

Thank you

Rodney Mullins  on April 14th, 2009

Bishop, On my thoughts of too much support is because we have created an entitlement in the COG. If we don’t or cannot make it we blame it on lack of support. How much do we really need? When does it become our own lack of leadership. John Maxwell say’s If you lead and no one follows you are just taking a walk. The sign of a true leader is that there is followers.

Tim Kidd  on April 14th, 2009

I will add one thing. In training and educating new ministers, the first thing that should be done is to remove the allure of “Cleveland TN”. The pursuit of Credentials via MIP or Lee or any other school should not include visions of state, national or international work. The church of God makes state work and national work look so appealing that I have to question the hundreds of new ministers every year and the large amounts that lose credentials. What is the motivation for ministry?

Harold Beesley  on April 14th, 2009

“Harold,
I read your post with some interest.
You and I will differ on a couple of points in that I don’t think anyone is hiding. We have failed in some regards to produce open records for some things but from where I sit, I don’t think leadership has attempted to hide anything. To “hide” as your post implies would give the appearance that sinister actions are considered.”

I shouldn’t post as late as I did! :-))

I believe it is a mistake to see it as the role or responsibility of the Denomination to plant Churches. Let’s look at the family scenario.

It is the hope of every parent to see their children grow into faithful, socially and spiritually responsible adults. After the children are grown it is a joy when the grandchildren come. Birth is the result of healthy adults.

Cab we really say the majority of our Churches are healthy? What is the average attendance of a COG congregation?

Effort and finances must be directed to seeing our already existant children become healty enough to give birth.

We struggle every single month to have any money for ministry. Recent growth is giving us great hope.

Larry Sterling  on April 15th, 2009

The question, “What is a denomination to do?” must first be preceded by another question. Namely, what is a denomination? Initially, a denomination is simply a group of believers agreeing on a set doctrine or practice and living in community and accountability with one another. This definition is based mainly upon the key principle of relationship. Without relationships, then the denomination becomes an institution based upon rules and procedures. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it misses the vital human need that craves relationships. Any person that studies why churches grow, and are able to maintain that growth, recognize that successful large churches excel in building relationships among the congregation.

50 years ago, the Church of God adapted to the time that it was in, modernism. Modernism wants a scientific method and structure. It desires to be structured and clean, and needs the security of a planned future. What happened in the culture is exactly what is now happening in the Church. Modernism is dying, and in some areas is dead. Its ideas are bankrupt, because it promoted narcissism and self-aggrandizement. Postmoderns see past the myth of modernism and know that what we need is community not pragmatism. This is why at the listening tours many of the elder generation were upset at promises made but not kept, while the younger generation looked past that and wondered why we lost our evangelistic missional zeal. Postmoderns recognize that relationships are messy, but necessary since we are formed in community.

The Church of God is not dead, nor is it dying. It is adapting, because we are Spirit led. What is dying is the old way of thinking that we are presently in. Simply put, the Church is incarnating itself into the culture that we are currently. In fifty years, we’ll do it again.

One final note, we are fine and will be as long as we continue to follow the Spirit of God.

Harold Beesley  on April 15th, 2009

Larry,

Very thought provoking post!!

John Stokes  on April 15th, 2009

Harold,

I agree with your church planting post to a point. I do believe that churches should plant and birth churches. I also believe that healthy churches will produce other healthy churches.

Where we may differ is on the distribution of resources to churches that are struggling. Money does not hinder ministry. Money follows ministry. Giving struggling churches money is like giving a person who is struggling financially money. If no plan is in place to do things differently, they will be in the same position as soon as that money is gone. We must begin to resource what is working.

I’m excited about your new growth and hope. Obviously you have been resourceful and faithful in the little you had, now God will bless you and entrust you with more. I don’t want people to struggle at all, but struggle often times proves and builds faithfulness.

Harold Beesley  on April 15th, 2009

John,

Thanks, excellanrt points!!

Neil Smith  on April 15th, 2009

Agreed Bishop!

I grow frustrated with the mentality of many ministers who want to complain about the denomination and yet do nothing to make it better. It is what we are! I continue to contend that the success of the Church of God lies in the hearts and hands of the local church…if we are visionaries, missional, and responsible we will be effective. The mistrust issue is simply a human attribute, we get attitudes and as you said, must apply blame where it is needed and move on. Our mentor WP Atkinson once said that no one else determines who our friends are or aren’t, that is within me to decide and to change. So it is with the relationship between local churches, ministers, and the state or international offices…we choose to be offended, to trust or not trust, and if we are or are not going to develop healthy attitudes and relationships!

jason walkerow  on April 15th, 2009

I will admit that my straight fowardness sometimes gets me into trouble, but maybe some cage rattling is what we all need at times.

A true growing church can be found in all of us Pentecostal’s favoriet chapter in Acts. Acts 2:42-47. If you read this it validates my point of helping those in need, but also God giving the increase.

So lets ask this… What are we missing? Paul states in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 that Jesus is the foundation of a church. OK, we got that. If you read further in that scripture it talks about how what man builds will be tested by fire, if it survives it will have its reward… The COG has been tested for years, and yet we are still here. Though sometimes flawed (no one’s perfect) we are still alive. But my concern is why do we close down a church if money is not flowing as well as it once did? I’ve read comments on here that say “Money follows ministry”. True, but does that then suggest that a Pastor that may be in a more deprived area of the nation (especially now) not have a heart for ministry? Or does that suggest that we should close him down and move his congregation to another location? Why? If we are the true body of Christ then we should support even the parts that are struggling. If that Pastor had more training or resources to reach out to his community around him, the story might be different. You don’t cut off your nose because you have a sinus infection. You get something to help heal it and make it stronger and better. We have too many ministers that are no longer doing anything because of being hurt.

Bishop, I agree that if we develop better leaders then our churches will be stronger. But, what then of the struggling Pastor now? Do we overlook them and say “out of sight, out of mind?” Don’t get me wrong, I know you have a heart for the Pastor’s. I have a mentor and close friend in Columbus, OH that you have helped tremendously. I’m speaking more from a denominational aspect.

Again, when we ask or talk about church growth are we talking spiritual or physical growth? You can grow in numbers every week and still be spiritually dead. If a church is growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord, and they are submitting to His will for their lives, not their own, then I say they are spiritually healthy, and belong there. Who are we to tell a man called by God that he or his people are no longer going to be fit for the Kindom work? I’m not saying give away the farm, but some support has to be given. Just like in life when we get married it is a huge finacial change. If it were not for parents, and others who care that we can look to at times, we wouldn’t make it either. The COG has to give some support to the struggling churches. Everyone needs some help from time to time. This isn’t a popularity contest that who has the biggest toys or church wins. If that’s the case, then we all lose.

Like anything else, there has to be balance in the local church for it to grow. There must be a balance of planting and watering for anything to grow. My opinion that a healthy church will have people that know their spiritual gifting and will be able to function in that gifting to help fullfill their function in the body of Christ. Most of all, there has to be a dependancy and obedience to the Holy Spirit so He can be released in those who plant, and water. God will bring the increase (1 Cor. 3:7).

James L Alldredge  on April 15th, 2009

1.) Has denominational authority replaced Apostolic authority?
2.) If 1 is the case then the responsibility of the denomination is to settle matters of doctrine (Acts 15), train and equip ministers (1 & 2 Timothy), organize and fund missions (2 Cor. 8,9), maintain discipline in the churches (1 Cor. 4,5), set a common standard for worship (1 Cor. 14), edify and encourage the local church (2 Cor. 10), hold minister’s accountable (Titus), preserve, protect, publish and proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ (1 & 2 Peter, 1 John, Jude). In these, the denomination’s authority is absolute.

If (1) is not the case, then a denomination is a mere human construct for shared resource, fellowship and accountability. In this, the denomination’s authority extends only to the voluntary consent of the governed. They may by whatever process seems good to them, redefine, reorganize or reinvent the denomination to serve any purpose they deem appropriate.

So which is it? Does the leadership of the CoG have Apostolic authority? Or are they simply administrators serving the will of the GA?

billisaacs  on April 15th, 2009

James,
You have provided a concise and “to the point” view of our challenge. We try to be both, feeling God has ordained our union/community but the truth is this is a man-made, opt-in construct for mutual partnership that has historically be redefined, remade as needs arise.

Great post!

Jeff Wolf  on April 16th, 2009

My view is perhaps more conservative than some of my brothers in arms. But, there again, it is only my view.

Does the Church of God need change? Yes. Must we evaluate our fiscal efficiency. Frequently. Will a realignment of resources on the present course prove to have been the responsible course of action when reflected upon by those who succeed us? It depends.

If we care for the future of the Church of God (and I believe we all do), and are willing to make an investment in it (and I believe we are), then there is something that we cannot ignore.

We must understand the value and necessity of ministry to a new generation. I recently heard statistics that state the following. The conversion rate in my father’s generation was approximately 60%. The conversion rate in my generation is about 34%. And the verdict in the generation we are now raising is 4%. I obviously cannot verify or vouch for these stats, but it does heavily concern me. Perhaps if only to serve as a reminder of how important student ministry is.

During the listening tour I heard much dialogue about church planting. I heard statements like, “church planting is the future of the Church of God.” While I don’t disagree with that statement, I do believe we must look beyond the surface. If we as a missional church put heavy emphasis on church planting, we must answer one question. Where are our church planters coming from? Will we pull them from other denominations or independent congregations seeking the right structure within which to plant a church? Possibly.

I submit to you that the church planters that will carry on the Pentecostal distinctives of our beloved church are sitting in Church of God youth groups, attending Church of God youth camps and retreats, involved in Church of God YCE initiatives and the like on the local, state and international levels. In essence, I believe it is easier to grow ministers than to win them. Our students must be a priority, missionally and financially.

Here’s where this discussion ties into realignment of resources. When less money is coming into administrative offices, on the state level specifically, budget cuts will be inevitable. MY OPINION is that, of the ministries that will be on the receiving end, YCE ministries will be in the front of the line. In short, states may be in danger of losing their state youth and christian education director.

Now, I know what some are probably thinking. True student ministry doesn’t take place at the state level, it takes place in the local church. You are half right. True student ministry is the responsibility of the local church. However, one of the things the Church of God has done very well historically is resource the local church in the are of student ministry.

Having served in state leadership, I can personally verify that state directors work very diligently to make quality student ministry happen. YCE ministries has been on the forefront of bringing cutting edge resources to the local church, inciting growth, and inspiring those who serve as boots on the ground in the battle for this generation. Many local youth pastors are the products of conscientious and proactive state directors who saw greatness in them, and served as a mentor along the way. These men are quality leaders in our denomination.

Unfortunately, very often blame is place upon leaders for failing ministry initiatives, declining numbers, and various problems within an organization. While leaders bear the responsibility, we share in that responsibility. I often hear fellow ministers speaking ill of leadership and the “system” they are part of. I believe that disagreement is healthy, but gossip and murmuring God will not honor. We cannot expect fiscal realignment to fix what often is a heart problem. Just my opinion.

In closing, I wish to point back to my opening remarks. Does the Church of God need change and fiscal reform? Yes. My fear, however, is that we will hastily bring about the kind of change that will hurt us rather than help us. I may be completely wrong in my assumptions that student ministry will suffer for the decisions made. I pray that I am. Perhaps a more probing question is, can we bring fiscal change without having to lose quality leaders in key roles such as, but not limited to, our state directors?

Above all, we MUST pass the baton of real Pentecost to the next generation. On that we can place no price tag. It is a worthy investment.

billisaacs  on April 17th, 2009

Jeff,

Your thoughts are both valid and present the COG with a significant question of “who is making disciples?” While the local church is the foundation of what God is doing, there are others who likewise are making their mark in the Great Commission. State YCE Directors are very important to student discipleship. Having served 18 years in this position, I can tell you that many smaller churches depend on the State YCE director for their student ministry! They work hand-in-hand from one state event to another bringing along their students to BIG EVENTS and MINISTRY EXPERIENCES from state meetings. I know some disagree but YCE has helped to develop many of the great leaders in our church. Not in every case, but many of the wonderful leaders we revere in our church have YCE experience. To drastically cut YCE would be like “eating your seed”, in my opinion.

Travis Johnson  on April 17th, 2009

“To drastically cut YCE would be like “eating your seed”, in my opinion.”

Aren’t we already doing that? Much of $13 million of church planting seed consumed every year by state offices in the COG, including this year? Further, don’t you think it’s slated to be eliminated as mandated line item?

Then, to comment on something Jeff mentioned regarding where our church planters are coming from: The more pertinent question is “where are they going to?” Ask Jeremey Self, Leonce Crump, Tony Byrd, and the many sons we grew up with who have gone where Gospel advancement by way of church planting is not only talked about but, its funded.

Unfortunately, many are going away from the church. And, many “church plants” we do have are new COG affiliations (sometimes, they’re just moving from one office to another). So, because we are “eating our seed,” we are failing to pass on our ethos and adopting that of other people who are doing the hard work of establishing new field work.

If our YCE salaries are gone, that work can be done by committees/groups. But, if we don’t fund the ONE THING…establishing missional outposts in the footsteps of Paul on modern missionary journeys, we will have no youth to send.

When the church planting mandate is eliminated, in a move I believe is beyond the scope of any of the motions adopted by the GA, Like a Mighty Army will record the names of the individuals who reversed a 70 year old mandate in favor of other less focused, less primal priorities.

James L Alldredge  on April 17th, 2009

“Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” Based on the current percentages of total budget, where is the heart of the CoG?

Spending = Priority, those who control the purse strings, control the mission. I don’t know how it is in Cleveland or Tampa (my state office), but in my time as Pastor, I’ve had to intentionally move us from a facility mindset to people mindset. In short, people matter, things not so much. I would rather see us be generous when it comes to funding people with a vision, plan and passion, than to prop up programs and mandates that only serve to justify the salary of those who perpetuate them.

Again, the secret of the Acts church success was not the organizational paradigm, but the anointed individuals who followed the leading of the Holy Spirit and their own passion for Jesus.

Larry Sterling  on April 17th, 2009

The key to structural and financial survival is determined upon how much pain you are willing to endure to reach your goal? Another way of stating this is confronting the brutal facts of that are before us. I agree in part with what Travis is saying about planting churches, but what really needs to happen is a complete overhaul of our thinking, that unfortunately will probably take a generation to accomplish.

We must focus on decentralizing the organization in order to streamline the resources that are present. The major focal point that most agree on is that “Cleveland” is too big. That is not necessarily the case. Cleveland in too inefficient, and there is a difference. The business of the Church of God is winning the lost, period. Any other mandate should be warily accepted without this “missional” mindset. EVERY program, and I mean EVERY, program must be reevaluated with one question in mind: How much does it cost us to reach 1 person for Christ? When our administration budget exceeds our missional budget then our priorities are misaligned, and will be shut down by God.

I firmly believe that God will not bless any denomination, which at its heart evangelism does not exist. Someone might say, “We have the baptism in the Spirit.” In response, for what purpose have you been empowered? Acts 1:8 makes it clear that Spirit empowerment is ONLY for reaching the lost, not for PERSONAL blessings.

When we attend services and what is the common definition of good service? It is usually, God’s Spirit moved, and people were blessed, but hardly anyone says “Hundreds came to Christ.” We must recapture the heart that grieves for the lost.

It is clear that Jesus has made the church responsible to take the message of the gospel to the world. So then the spiritual climate of the world is directly impacted by how well we are fulfilling that mandate. When I see statistics that people 32 years and younger have a conversion rate of 4%, frankly it means we are FAILING, and our priorities must change. Unfortunately, most begin to turn inward and get defensive to try to HOLD on to a dying program.

We must reengage the culture, with the power of the Spirit of God. We must retake territory that we squandered while we focused on our own future rather than the Kingdom of God.

I was there at the last Assembly when the Holy Spirit spoke during the business session, and warned us to turn around or face demise. To me this is our choice, Follow the voice of the Spirit, or continue down paths that will lead us to our own destruction.

Travis Johnson  on April 18th, 2009

Great words, Larry…great words.

Tom Rosson  on April 20th, 2009

Bill, thanks for opening the dialog on this topic. Let me address the matter from a more historical perspective by asking the question, what were the core values of our denomination in its earliest years. Finding out what contributed to any organization’s early successes will normally be tied to its DNA. So. here’s my take on our core values.

1. Church planting
From the onset, A.J. Tomlinson had the desire to evangelize by planting new churches. In 1902, there was the single church in Camp Creek, NC. By 1905, there were churches in NC, TN, and GA. At the first Assembly in 1905, there were five congregations. By 1910, we had 31 churches; by 1911 there were 51. By …, well you get the picture.

2. The Power of Holy Spirit
I place this second on purpose due to its historical timing. Although there were charismatic demonstrations with the Christian Union in 1886, there was no teaching about it. And it appears that the charismata didn’t stick with the group. It was in 1908, after the third General Assembly that A.J. Tomlinson was filled with the spirit at a revival in Alabama. Subsequently, he invited G.B. Cashwell to Cleveland and the Pentecostal revival came to stay in the denomination.

3. World Missions
By 1909, Edmund Barr and R.M Evans experienced Pentecost. The next year, they went to the Bahamas to plant the COG. Other missionaries and countries would quickly be a part of the denomination’s outreach. Today, the COG is in 170 countries.

4. Social Ministry
From 1900-1910, the leaders frequently collected clothes for needy children. There were several attempts to establish an orphanage. 1910, Lillian Thrasher started an orphanage in Egypt. Finally, the first COG home for children was established in 1920 in Cleveland.

5. Youth Ministry
1906, already the need for family ministry, family devotions was expressed. Later initiatives, youth camps and the YPE movement.

6. Ministerial Training/Education
Most of us know about Lee University having its roots at the Bible Training Institute. It began in 1919. Since then we can look at all the different educational initiatives and programs, including the MIP and CIMS.

After writing this, I am still of the conviction that the local church is the hope of the world. The denomination exists because of the local church. However, the denomination has the power to be great than the sums of its local congregations. The purpose of the denomination is simply to help us all achieve things that local churches by themselves cannot accomplish alone.

I think these core values listed above can really be our north star / our true north as we navigate the waters of decentralization (how else are we to interpret the decision of the last General Assembly) and budget reductions.

JIm  on April 20th, 2009

Bishop,

I was a “rock and roll preacher” that was placed in a country-western church. The end result that came about was that this church is in a re-plant stage and is now producing good fruit. I think we might be missing something. Maybe we have been trying to fix the symptoms and not the root problem. I must respectfully disagree about matching the personality of the church to the personality of the pastor. The examples I have seen thus far have not been fruitful.

I love the Church of God. I love its form of government. It allows a “GOD CALLED” Pastor to be the pastor. I love its history and I love where it is going. Administratively, I think the system needs to be tweeked as with any organization. But again, we are trying to cure the symptoms and NOT the disease. I just a field hand, Bishop but I would love to share my heart privately.

Thank you for trusting me.

jason walkerow  on April 20th, 2009

I am only 30 years old. I hate the idea or stats that say the conversion rate is at 4% for my generation. But, we ALL are to blame for that. We have leaders too involved in thier personal goals to train and truely lead, and we have younger ministers that have high hopes and no training so that when their expectations are not met they are left behind wondering what happend. We need a healing in the COG. A healing that will help restore ministers that have been broken. We have too much of a mindset that focusses on us more then the world around us.

Brother Sterling, I love this statement of yours: “We must reengage the culture, with the power of the Spirit of God. We must retake territory that we squandered while we focused on our own future rather than the Kingdom of God.” As a former Youth Pastor, I could not agree more. My heart is with the youth. I see them come in and they are confussed by the world around them. Then they come in to church and become even more confussed and less interested because they do not feel welcome or respected, or even of any use.

Let’s face it. If someone did not take the time to look at us and see any kind of potential, where would we be? We as the COG or any other larger denomination have tendencies to over look the youth. There is a 4% conversion rate because we have not taken the time to listen to them. We feel sorry for them because of the pressures, and the things they face. We give them their services at Prayer Conference and Camp Meetings, but we applaude only those that are there. What about the one’s who are not? What about the one’s who could care less because they feel their denomination is too big to reach out to them?

In closing, let me say this… if you want to reach a generation that already feels misunderstood… listen. Perhaps it’s ironic that today marks the 10th anniversary of the Columbine shootings in Littleton, CO. A rock singer that we all know and love to bash, Marylin Manson was asked one question in an interview 2 days after the shootings because his music was blamed for setting these 2 young men off on this rampage. They asked him: “What would you have said to these 2 young boys before they entered the school that day?” His response silenced the reporter as he said: “I wouldn’t have said anything. I would have listened.” Again, you want to reach this generation? Stop asking questions and trying to come up with the next best thing. Just listen. After we listen, then it’s up to us to move. If we really care about this denomination and where it will go from here, you MUST invest into the youth. But in order to have the youth in mind, you must know the mind of the youth.

Jim  on April 21st, 2009

Jason, I couldn’t agree with you more….

Larry, could you expound on your statement “We must reengage the culture, with the power of the Spirit of God.” How would you reengage the culture and which one?

Darryl Ramey  on September 21st, 2009

Wow, I just read through some healthy remarks here..Reality check, COG didn’t get to where it is overnight. First, the success and development didn’t happen overnight and the changes needed won’t happen overnight. It does appear there is a shift taking place.

I see the COG from the balcony. Meaning, I didn’t come through the COG. Therefore I see everything from a different view. I would equate 90 % of success and failure of local churches will come out of strategy and structure. Decentralizing and removing the institutional church model will be needed soon and swiftly. Most churches that need new directions and strategy need RESOURCES !!

1. First, create proven resources and information for structure and strategy for church development and growth. - FREE and OPEN sourced to download and use. Stop trying to sell it to own churches.

2. Develop a Bishop Coaching Network to a District Overseerer Coaching Network to a Pastoral Coaching Network that connects pastors and leaders together sharing ideas, training, resources, communication, strategies and structures to each other.

3. Develop church leaderships into staff-led churches and REMOVE politics from our churches across the board.

4. Utilize our printing company to develop professional and customizable church marketing (evangelism) and informational tools that promote our local churches. I seen the professional brochures and promotions that Cleveland prints to promote things to churches and I see nothing new and professional that can be utilized in local churches. Why can’t we produce the items like Outreach.com that can be developed just for COG churches and printed without trying to profit off everything…

5. Use the size of the denomination to create buying power and discounts for church supplies and needs. We don’t need Pathway to sell back to churches the same items that we buy at Christian bookstores everywhere else.

6. I know that changing the structure with these parts of the business would effect the operating costs and monies made from them to fund them. I would be first to want to reduce the amounts sent to state and national levels. However, I wouldn’t mind continuing to send the same amounts if we could get back in return resources, support, training and things that help us grow and reach our commnunities. I think many would agree that the problem isn’t what we are sending to the denomination, it is what we are getting in return on our investment in the denomination.